FROM: Re: [TaiwanFocus] Re: Political Games

To Gary!!!!!!!!!!

I stand behind what I said entirely!

You can believe in your mind that Iraq is a success?????????

I am for freedom of any people in the world and the backing of any democracy that stands for the people anywhere in the world.

As for us backing up with force?????/

Our force has been COMPLETELY miss handled by the leaders and decision makers, not the men in the field but by our government and who they have put in control of operations. This is a plain SICK fact that has been brought before the eyes of the world on a daily basis..

You do not agree? Then you take the most sophisticated military in the world and put them up against a country that had no military might and we see what the outcome has become.

You take those that said it was going to be a walk in the park and this same person stood proud on a deck of a ship and said major combat was over and the mission was a success.

Sorry to disappoint you my friend, but I was for Freeing Iraq's people, and for going after Afghanistan, but the uncontrolled situation of the military by the so called planners of operations in Iraq, took place from day one after entering Baghdad when the military had no orders of keeping the situation under control and they sat and watched the people destroy the city, and from that time on the control factor was out the door because the strategy was that of no effect from there on and still today.

A country with the most powerful military in the world shut down by that of a third world country lacking any sophistication and man power we are so lucky to have but sad enough no one in position to use effectively.

Now you want to talk China my friend. I really get mad with this topic and the US position with China, and how greed commands the US policies, and also the lack of continual response to Beijing's threats and all there promises about their currency and trade deficit promised to the US for approval of their entry int othe WTO, and nothing is done to make them live up to their promises.

Also how US will not back anything that may make China mad:( :( :( poor China, scared US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel we take the stance of Singapore when China threatened them with trade sanctions due to a visit to Taiwnan by the incomming leader of Singapore.

All the threat about Taiwan from China and the response is.." We back the one China policy" "We stand strong on the one China policy", We are strongley against Taiwan independence.

At the same time all males in Taiwan loose two years of there lives HAVING to serve in the military because they are under this continual threat across the straights and many words of no reassurance the US is standing steady or will stand behind the Taiwan Act

Beginning of this administration was we will protect Taiwan at all costs. Now we set conditions that would put us out of any conflict over Taiwan and now China bolsters even more loudly the threats of war with Taiwan!!!!!!!!!!

All we have done is encourage China's threats against Taiwan. Now even more discusting is the blame of tentions placed on Taiwan instead of those talking war and distruction and crushing of Taiwan.

Now let move on to N.Korea, Who has been the supporters of N.Korea making statements that there is no proof of refinining plutonium for nuclear weapons. China as recent as 2 months ago. Why does N,Korea exist today and have not fallen? Is it the country to the north or south?? There are only two on its boarders.

Well to the south we have S.Korea, I do not see them making the North what it is today, now lets talk about the North.. CHINA!!!!!!!!!!! hmmm.. interesting.

China has made N.Korea a bargaining chip against the US with Taiwan. Bush was sucked right into this with open arms and keeps praising China for its help. Whatg a joke. THis was set up by China to help themselves against the US on Tiawan.. PLAIN NAD SIMPLE, but not so plain and simple to the idiots in office..

The country that has made N,Korea what it is today and supports them is now going to help us deal with them?

Yes of course when they can use it to take the US hostage when dealing with Taiwan. Which is the issue to China from the biginning of all this with N.Korea.. Hint Hint???????????? This administration is full of @@@@@@@.. They are suckers and eat their words over and over.. And I do say Bush is a coward with this stance and policies he has changed over his term in office..

Protect Taiwan at any cost??? This was their words?? Now conditions set into place to not protect Taiwan under certian conditions and this is stated very openly as well. Again giving China tghe go aheadd with the aggression towards Taiwan, the democracy. Complete reversal in position and to prove this we have China making this there public everyday speech about attacking Taiwan and war with Taiwan, and a direct face to face statement to Bush at a recent summit from a Chinese diplomat that China will take all necessary steps to prevent any Independence moves by Taiwan.. Face to Face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And said to be the first time words were ever directly said in a public setting to the face of US about this issue.

Did we get a response???????? NO!!!!!!!!!! The US does not respond even when slapped in the face with it!!!!!!!!!!!

US has become very much a small player in the world, when you have leaders of a lesser power making a face to face threat to the other, I think that tells us a little about our own leaders here in the US, and also makes it clear that the US does not stand tall or stand up for democracy as we once did especially when involved is a country that has a military.

As for Europe and what they are doing and wanting to do>>>>>>> We should forget these guys as Allies, and stop all trade with them and if China does not live up to international standards and abide to promises that let them stand in the powerful position they are in, cut many ma ny ties with them. If they do not stop with their growing aggression towards us and the smaller nations use this as reason as well to cut friendly ties with them and for once take a stance and a position based on our beliefs and the rights of those they are threatening more and more as their power grows. What is the most troubling is that France and Gernay wants a bipolar sharing superpower status, but at the same time is backing a Dictatorship. as if they have slid back ti the times beforee the world war. Amazing how they should be put in their place, and again we fail to do this as well. Do these countries know what the objective and creation of NATO was all about???? Democracy and to spread it around the
world for other to enjoy and to get out from under supression.. Now they support this???????

This administration along with the Clinton administration , all the way back to Nixon is guilty of this.

But for the US to get sucked into the N.Korea talks and China being a mediator, this was going too far and being completely ridiculous and just plain stupidity to let China use this leverage they created and for our leaders to think China is doing us a favor and so much good. It is like they created a weapon and we thank them for using it on us.

Our leaders have shown a big weakness just in plain stupidity recently along with blindness.

This is causing China to believe they have nothing to fear from the US with anything they do or say or pursue. Tibet, spratly islands, Boarders, This has all been focused on lately by China as China builds. This will not end if at some point their is a stance b y someone to set boundries of just how far we all as a global community will let them take it. US is not interfering with any of that, so they keep going further and further, taking every thing further and further.

The sub in Japanese waters and not know it is theirs?? Who are we fooling? Just pushing things too far, but are able to do it.. What does that say?

Now you tell me how strong we look to the world when we create the situation that has taken place in Iraq???????

When we let the dictatorship of china do and say anything they want. When we let the ones that have directly sustained a country and use the issue as leverage against us.

You call this strong?
I call it incompetent and dangerous to ourselves as a power and dangerous to those that are at the mercy of China, such as Taiwan..

All this double talk we get from the administration today, Powell saying one thing while speaking in Hong Kong then retract his words after leaving. Another example that shows how we bow to China and present ourselves as worthless as a superpower.

I find him repulsive now, where in the past I had great respect for him. He is just another mouth piece for our low moral stance when we talk about the China issue.

His words was no mistake, his words was to make face in front of the Chinese in HK and China. This was all it was for. At the same time giving the aggressors of China reason to go even further with their threats on Taiwan.

Also as many probably forget , before the introduction to one of the resolutions to the security council to be voted on, Bush saying , regarding Taiwan and trying to win the China approval of the resolution and stating how the US stands strong on the One China policy to get points from China and try and bribe them of there yes vote on the resolution.

Sounds no better than China themselves!!!!!

I stand STRONGLY behind what I posted earlier and always will.

US became China little suckers with the N. Korean problem. The Bush administration are that of undependable and irresponsible political players that will also sacrifice human lives because of greed, and they are and have been showing this from day one as their opinions have went from "at all means to, Oh , we strongly support the one china policy and Taiwan has never been a sovernt country and never enjoyed being a soverent people""

What are you thinking Gary??

We have stayed strong and steady???

We had a plan for the Iraqi war???

It was not blotched?

We are showing our intelligence when a third world country has made us look like a country of idiots where we never took the upper hand with our military might?

We have the brave men, we have the sophistication, but we have no one that can use it effectively and show China, for one that we are capable of using it effectively.

This has nothing to do with our troops, but the people that are suppose to map out the strategy that has been completely worthless, in Afghanistan and Iraq..

A cease fire, and in Afghanistan. God I was so mad and stated, they are letting him get away!!!!!!!!!!! And he did.. Is this not just stupidity??????? Or who knows what it was for? Maybe not stupidity at all but for reason that none of us knows what for.

Let clerics gather thousands in Iraq and raise anti-American sentiments against the troops that had to stand around and let it happen. It happened time and time again in public format.

Are there not those against us and those for us in a war, and we are suppose to rid those opposing us instead of letting them gather and form groups to fight against us right in front of our troops they are plotting against and going to kill?

This is also stupidity, and only now the Iraqi government is doing something about this and arresting those that denounce the new government. After they have collected and formed these groups and have killed many US soldiers and Iraqi's fighting for freedom with us.

This Iraq war was a disaster and had done nothing in a show of power for the US, except that we have sophisticated weapons but can not fight a war effectively.

This is what this has shown the world!

We look stronger???

Prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have ineffective leadership in this country that can only wish they were stronger leaders but do nothing to show it and do not know what to do to show it. Only then we will see respct by others for us.

I do not even see why Taiwan should show us any respect at this time, but again right now we are the only hope and that hope is dying

Maybe you will try and blame Taiwan and president Chen..

I blame US and China both for the circumstances surrounding the democracy of Taiwan, China for its aggression and US for not standing up to it, but praise them for all they fooled US that they are doing.

What a joke !!!!

I am sorry to the members if this sounds offensive to any of you, but I do not support the US position on China AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!

I have talked many times to people that support the CCP and down grade Taiwan and the people, and hate there is nothing any one can actually do to change the situation that the people of Taiwan has lived under all of these years by the constant threat of China's leaders.

And to think we are a country based on the same type of system, but somehow put it to the side and let greed take its place..

Gary Kirchherr <erie@kirchherr.com> wrote:

--- Tony Giamporcaro wrote:

> US stands down and looks weak to the world because their words have
> no backing and they avoid taking a stance like China has made time
> and time again.

America's "words have no backing"? It avoids "taking a stance"? What
nonsense. However you feel about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq,
they proved that the United States *will* back up its threats with
force and take a stance. Which is a hell of a lot more than one can
say for the rest of the spineless, corrupt, kickback-accepting
countries of Europe -- the same ones that are considering lifting the
arms embargo against China.

> UWS has fallen from grace to the world and today it is getting worse
> and worse as we bow to the great China and trade with them on a
> unequal basis as for trade deficits and greed by the large companies
> that shape our future due to the little guys that try and make us
> believe they are leading the country as in honor, but only as for
> greed for large corporations.

The United States *is* enacting legislation to deal with this problem,
specifically, China's refusal to float its currency, which is the
single greatest cause of the U.S. trade deficit with that country.
This legislation carries the threats of sanctions if China continues
to manipulate its currency to its advantage -- and the United States'
disadvantage. I don't know what else you expect Congress and the
president to do.

> Now we enable China to build and build an advanced military that the
> US is afraid to take a stance against.

The U.S. expresses its concern about it all the time! Especially, as
just mentioned, its displeasure with the European Union's
consideration of renewing arms sales to China. The U.S. is not the
problem here, Tony.

> Our leaders are wimps here in the US and stand for nothing as we see
> with Taiwan , a democracy that once we would have protected with all
> means, but now make excuses not to back or support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The U.S. *is* acting to protect Taiwan. Remember the proposed arms
sale? It's still "proposed" because Taiwan's legislature still hasn't
accepted it! Is this the fault of the U.S.?

> Us is losing ground on morals and comitment day by day for the cause
> of peoples riughts and democracy, and will soon be seen as second
> rate to a dicctatorship of China that us our selves has created and
> still enforcing with our policies and our bowing to their power..

As I said before, the U.S. is the one country that *is* standing up
for rights and democracy, while the rest of the world opposes such
action because it would mean the end of their Oil for Food kickbacks.

> US will deserve to fall from power because we elect leaders that
> have took us into this direction.

Actually, Bush is taking us in the opposite direction. It was Clinton
and his surrogates like Jimmy Carter who bow to the whims of evil
countries and give away the store in negotiations that produce
treaties that other countries ignore anyway. Just be glad the U.S. was
smart enough to realize that, and elected Bush to two terms.

> Those in Taiwan should be preparing within Taiwan to build defenses
> and offensive deterents to protect themselves, because the US is not
> to the challenge of China and what China is capable of ,and worse of
> all , we will not stand for any basics as for what we were built on
> ourselves.

As I said, this is nonsense.

> Look at the stupitity the present administration was sucked into
> China with N. Korea issue?

No, it was the *Clinton* administration.

> The N.Korea built as a tool to use against us by China to gain an
> advantage to compromise on Taiwan.
>
> US politics are ran by stupidity and blindness.
>
> Taiwan should be busting their butts to build their own defenses and
> missles and if by any means Nueclear weapons for a deterent.
>
> Great going . isn't it?

Yeah, great going. <rolls eyes>

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