Transcript of May 23, 2006 Broadcast of Lou Dobbs Tonight On CNN

Joining me now, Gordon Chang, one of this country's leading authorities on communist China, author of "Nuclear Showdown: North Korea Takes on the World"; Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy, co-author of "War Footing."

Gentlemen, good to have you here.

Let me start with you, Frank. The Pentagon acknowledging that there is now a tipping point in the Asian-Pacific region and China is driving it. FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: This is not exactly news to anybody who has been following China, but it's probably news to most Americans, because this is not a message that's been communicated.

DOBBS: Not to the audience of this broadcast, Frank.

GAFFNEY: That's correct. But this has not been adequately communicated, I think, beyond this broadcast, Lou, simply because particularly since 9/11, we've been trying to foster this idea that the communist Chinese are actually our allies in the war on terror. This report makes it pretty clear they are arming to be something very different.

DOBBS: Gordon, does this mean the Pentagon is waking up?

GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": Well, I'd hope so. But we've got to remember, just a few days ago the Pacific commander invited the Chinese to view exercises off the coast of Guam. And just a few days before that, the NASA administrator said he was going to go to China to cooperate, which means that there's going to be a sharing of knowledge and technology which the Chinese are going to use for military purposes and that means they are going to use it to threaten us sometime in the future.

DOBBS: Do you agree, Frank?

GAFFNEY: Very much so. I think the report is pretty clear that what China is doing is not any longer defensive. It's not even geared exclusively towards threatening possibly taking over Taiwan. It's now about projecting power, both in its literal and I think elsewhere around the world with strategic choke points and advanced military capabilities designed to threaten us.

DOBBS: North Korea, Gordon, China -- communist China has not been particularly helpful there. The United States is now looking at unilateral approaches on a host of challenges. Is this tied to communist China's geopolitical interests, not only in Asia but around the world?

CHANG: I think China is trying to promote dialogue but not a solution, because it wants to keep Japan off balance and it certainly wants to keep Washington off balance. And if we look at the same thing with regard to Iran, they are trying to keep the West off balance there, so China is helping both Iran and North Korea.

DOBBS: What should be the U.S. response here, first diplomatically in terms of geopolitical strategy, and are we adequately prepared militarily to deal with what looks to be a serious challenge to U.S. strength and interests, Frank?

GAFFNEY: Well, I think we ought to be working on trying to bring about internal change in China. Lou, I think the only hope you have really is that you see a government come to power there that is not bent on these sort of nationalist purposes and offensive purposes. DOBBS: Frank, I've got to be honest with you. I'm one of those guys who's had a belly-full of the United States trying to affect internal change in other countries. I've had a belly-full. What can we do that's within our control straightforwardly?

GAFFNEY: Well, I think you need to arm to contend with the danger that is emerging there. But, Lou, I think to do that alone is to mistake and miss an opportunity for political warfare that I think they are engaged in against us, we need to be engaged in with them.

DOBBS: Gordon, do you agree?

CHANG: Yes, the one thing about trying to change a country, you can do it, but it takes decades and decades and we need help now.

DOBBS: Amen, brother. Gordon, good to have you here.

CHANG: Thank you.

DOBBS: Frank, thank you very much.

GAFFNEY: My pleasure. Thank you.

DOBBS: Frank Gaffney, Gordon Chang.